“There, pšála, the Roma are going, and protect Ukraine. For Ukraine, pšála, the Roma are fighting”

History of Ukrainian Roma in Russia and Russian Roma woman in Ukraine

The Roma are not a territorial ethnic group that does not have its own country and lives in the territories of various European states (and not only), based on this, the Roma identify each other as representatives of the same ethnic group, without tying themselves to any country of residence. Moreover, for many Roma, citizenship is more of a formality or a necessity to have an identity document. There are known cases when members of the same family had the citizenship of different countries. Such cases also occur among Ukrainian and Russian Roma, which we will talk about.

Historical connection of Ukrainian and Russian Roma. Historically, the Roma of Ukraine and Russia are closely related, moreover, the same ethnic groups mostly live in the territory of the two countries. For example, Servurja Roma were formed on the territory of Ukraine, but later their traditional areas of residence also became the Rostov, Voronezh, and Samara regions of the Russian Federation. Vlaxurja-Roma are represented mainly in the Krasnodar, Stavropol Krai and Rostov, Astrakhan’ regions of the Russian Federation, but a significant number of them also live in the Kherson, Mykolaiv, Donets’k, and Luhans’k regions of Ukraine. Crimean Roma come from Crimea, a large number of them also live in Zaporizhzhia, Kherson, Odesa regions of Ukraine, but at the same time, many representatives of the ethnic group are concentrated in the Krasnodar region and the Samara and Sverdlovs’k regions of the Russian Federation. The same applies to most other groups: Kelderash, Lovara, Plashuny, Kyshynivci, Ruska Roma, etc. Therefore, not paying attention to the fact that Ukrainian and Russian Roma live in the territories of two different countries with a state border between them, for a long time, for the Roma community, Ukraine and Russia were considered as a monolithic cultural space, without mental borders. Russian and Ukrainian Roma often married each other, visited each other on major calendar holidays (Christmas, Easter, Yilbashi, Gypsy New Year, etc.), and came to weddings and funerals. It is not surprising that a large number of Roma in Ukraine have close relatives in Russia, and vice versa – Russian Roma have relatives in Ukraine. Therefore, even today it is not uncommon to meet a Roma citizen of Ukraine in Russia and vice versa.

The occupation of Donbas and Roma ties. In 2014, the first stage of the Russian military invasion of Ukraine began, the result of which was the partial occupation of Donbas, the formation of the so-called LDNR and annexation of Crimea. These events brought changes for the first time in the perception of the Roma of both countries about the borderless mental space. On the one hand, the relations of Roma in the middle of the country have changed – now it has become impossible for Roma citizens of Ukraine to enter the territory of the so-called LDNR, as well as the Roma who remained to live in the occupied Donbas, it became noticeably more difficult to get to the territory of free Ukraine. On the other hand, there were difficulties with crossing the Ukrainian-Russian border. Since 2015, Russian citizens could enter Ukraine only with a foreign passport, which Roma often did not have. Also, after the beginning of the Russian aggression in Donbas, Russians coming to Ukraine began to be checked more thoroughly, and the number of refusals to enter Ukraine increased. Since 2020, citizens of Ukraine could enter Russia only with a foreign passport.

But despite the war in Donbas, which brought many troubles to its inhabitants, including the Roma, despite the significant complication of crossing the Ukrainian-Russian border, the Roma still moved freely between the two countries, although somewhat less.

Russian invasion of Ukraine (2022). On February 24, 2022, Russia began the second stage of aggression in Ukraine – a full-scale invasion. At the beginning of the invasion, without paying attention to the previous escalation of the situation between the countries, some Ukrainian Roma were in Russia, and Russian Roma were in Ukraine. It was with such two heroes that I met during a survey among Roma – Ukrainian refugees from the war in Europe. Both heroes are closely related to both Ukraine and Russia, and had life experience in both countries. The first is Andrii (name changed), originally from Kherson region and descended from the Roma community of Servurja. In 2012, he married a Russian Roma woman from the Ruska Roma ethnic group. For the first six months, Andrii and his wife lived in Ukraine, but problems with the lack of their own housing prompted the couple to move to his wife’s homeland – Nyzhnii Novgorod (the city has been changed). Andrii is 52 years old and after 10 years of living together, he and his wife have three minor children, all three citizens of Russia:

I got married for the first time at the age of 25. Well, that’s when my life, it changed drastically and generally went... well, as of today, not in the same direction as it turned out. But at first, for the first three years, I thought I was going there. But after 13 years of living together, it turned out that we were not on the right track. In short, we got along. And at the age of 42, I decided to take a plunge again. I got married, in a word. She is from Ruska Roma. They are very decent Roma. They are from the Urals. And I ended up in Russia.

The second heroine is Angelina (name changed). Angelina is 25 years old, she comes from the Vlaxurja-Roma group, she was born and raised in Rostov-on-Don (the city has been changed) in the Russian Federation. After finishing school, she married a Ukrainian Roma Servurja man. Until 2019, Angelina and her husband mostly lived in Russia, and since 2019 – in Ukraine. The couple has two minor children, a boy who is a citizen of the Russian Federation and a girl who is a citizen of Ukraine:

I got married at the age of 17 in Ukraine. Before that, I studied at school, then at a technical school. Then I met David [name changed]. I studied for a short time – only three months. Now I have been married for eight years. We worked with David in Russia, well, to be honest, out of eight years, I have been living in Ukraine for exactly two years. Because we usually came here for a month or two, and again left for Russia. That is, I did not consider at all that I live in Ukraine.

According to the girl, the first years were quite unusual and uncomfortable for her to live in Ukraine:

I did not understand the way of life, I did not understand the attitude of people, I could not adapt, I always lived mentally in Russia. I felt like I didn’t like it here. Well, somehow, I grew up in Russia. Moreover, I always liked it there in Rostov, I loved it, my family was there. And always, at any convenient moment, I told David: here is Ukraine, everything is worse here, but there it is cool. […]. We fought sometimes because of it. Then, due to quarantine, we spent two years in Ukraine, did not go anywhere, and the little one was born here. I began to look at Ukraine differently, I began to notice that many things are simpler here than in Russia. Over these two years, I really understood that it is better in Ukraine. The very mentality of the people is absolutely different, people in Ukraine are kinder. Here I have a Russian passport, a kid has Russian documents, and never had any problems. There, touching on hospitals, kindergartens, or something, yes, everything at the snap of a finger. Everything is very simple, although I speak Russian, as if people see that I am from Russia, and everything is much simpler. I arrived now [to Russia] and in general always before that, gadže [non-Roma], just like dogs. It is impossible to go anywhere... for free at all – there is not even a conversation. Even for some lové [money], something, somewhere to agree, to buy. Everywhere magarych [bribe], everywhere people like dogs. In reality, it is a thousand times more difficult.

Andrii shares his experience of living in Russia from the point of view of Ukrainian Roma:

During these 10 years, I understood what Russia is. Russia is a huge prison. This is a prison from which it is very difficult to get out and in which life is not easy. A man who lives in Russia: he goes to work, he works for 12 hours. He comes home, he could even get nothing for dinner, but he is calm, he is satisfied with everything. Apparently, people don’t eat there in order to be full, they eat there in order to quench their hunger. […] Three kinds of bread: a brick and a loaf, and this, Lord forgive me, is called a “kalabashka”. As Uncle Sashko used to say, “hungry Russia”. I often remembered these words of his, čavo [guy].

At the beginning of the war, both heroes did not live in their country for a long time. And they learned about the beginning of the invasion under different circumstances. On February 24, Andrii was at his home in Nyzhnii Novgorod and heard about the beginning of the war from the Russian federal mass media:

Do you know when I found out? I found out, yes, on the 24th... it was somewhere around the 12th. And on TV, this is in Russia, I understood, and on TV I watched that, then these cars, armored personnel carriers. Here is a big car, and there is this one with a machine gun sitting in the back. And they are shooting at the hydroelectric power plant. This is “Z” and by HPP. And I look: Pšála [brother], Vasia! [Vasia:] Yes, Andriukha, they are showing your town! [Andrii:] That’s right, pšála, and there is our town! And where, pšála, are they? [Vasia:] And now, Andrei, they announced some kind of special operation.

Angelina was in the Dnipropetrovs’k region at that very time, she and her family woke up in the morning due to the beginning of Russian shelling. In a few days, Angelina’s family left for the Kirovohrad region, then for Vinnytsia, and then for L’viv:

Where we are going, bombs are flying behind us everywhere. Usually, I set an alarm every half an hour, so that if there is a siren, so as not to oversleep. It turns out in which city, wherever we go to escape, in any calm city they shoot in the morning. Every time I went to bed and said goodbye to everyone, I kissed the children. I didn’t know if I would wake up in the morning or not. Here I am feeding the child, and I don’t understand, in an hour we will be alive or not. We lived in such fear for 18 or 20 days. I thought, if I am destined to die, let it be right away, so that neither we nor the children suffer. So that it is not – without an arm, without a leg. […] Immediately better in a dream…

Andrii shares his first reaction after watching the news:

Čávoro [boy], I can’t convey what I felt. To say that boiling water was poured over me – no. I doused myself with boiling water. No, it’s not like that. I was amazed! Well, it is a terrible thing. I can’t express it in words. I don’t know what. Believe me, I did not expect at all that I would feel this way. Believe me, I did not expect that I would have such a reaction. […] I am listening to this, Cherkasy, čávoro, I am crying. This brother-in-law stands: Andrei, what is wrong with you? He is already looking at me – he is crying too.

Angelina also shares her feelings and thoughts during her departure from Dnipropetrovs’k region:

How angry I was at Russia then, I understand that I'm from there, that’s all. But when we were sitting in basements with children, we were afraid because Russian bombs were falling. I never thought I’d hate it so much. I was ashamed. Before, I always, when I talked with rakljá [non-Roma girls], or anywhere else, with his [husband’s] friends. When they asked me: Where am I from? – I said that I was from Russia and for some reason I was always proud of it. But during the war, I felt ashamed. I was so offended that I was hiding from where I came from. It was unpleasant in my soul, as if it was not the country that did it, but someone from my family.

After staying in L’viv, Angelina crossed the Ukrainian-Polish border with her two small children and ended up in Poland.

In the photo: the border territory of Ukraine, March 2023 (author – Viktor Chovka)

And from Poland, through Belarus’, they went to their parents in Russia. Arriving in the capital of the Russian Federation, the heroine immediately met with misunderstanding on the part of fellow citizens:

We arrived in Moscow, we arrived by train with my mother. From the moment I got out of the station, I began to swear. It turns out the loaders are at the station. I look, a loader, it says “300 rubles a place”. I had four suitcases and a stroller. We come up, he says: 1800 from you. I say: I mean, it says 300. He says: This is one place, like, and you have six. And I have two small children, a lot of bags, it’s clear that I didn’t drive 100-200 kilometers there, yes. I say: You know, I’m from Ukraine, I don’t have Russian money. I thought it was 300 rubles. Let’s do it at least for 600. He says: What do you mean, from Ukraine? And with such aggression, he began like: Why did you come here, since you don’t have it?! It was necessary to go, like, to Poland, you are accepted there by Poles, Czechs. Why did you come here!? I became so angry with him first. And then mom says: Quiet, quiet. I think now we would be closed in a “monkey house” [jail]. Well, I didn’t say anything.

In the photo: Moscow railway station, February 2022 (provided by one of the heroes of the conversation)

From the Moscow railway station, Angelina went to her parents’ house in Rostov-on-Don. And after a few days, she met a misunderstanding at home:

Even my father, yes, I tell him: Dad, a relative died there, that one died, they shoot at kindergartens, at schools; [Father:] The fact that the civilian population is dying is because Ukraine is shooting them. I say: Dad, I was there, I saw it all; – useless. [Father:] This is Ukraine, it’s not true. The civilian population does not die there. And I just argued with him. I say: Do you believe what’s on TV or what I tell you? […] I remember we were driving and these military “Z” tanks were driving along the highway and dad was signaling to them. I say: That’s right, dad, signal, they are now going to where your grandson’s dad is, or where your nephew is, they are going to shoot at them, and you signal to them. And he: Fool, they protect us. […] I beat myself up with them to tears, I was offended, from injustice, I could not listen to all this calmly.

In contrast to Angelina’s situation, the Roma surrounding Andrii supported him and sympathized:

You understand, where I lived, there are Roma, and they don’t like war at all, their rajá [police] can be taken away at any moment, the rajá is raided on Roma. And this is what I explain to them, develop them. I am showing them a town, where Gypsies live, I know these people, I was there, and your gadže [non-Roma guys] are shooting at them. And then suddenly, they began to understand something. Then brother-in-law will find some news on YouTube and this is what he showed me: Andriukha, yours drove them away from Kyiv.

Against the background of the Russian war in Ukraine, one of the most popular topics was the stealing of a Russian tank by Roma in the Kherson region. This event was actively discussed among the Russian Roma.

[Andrii:] Oh, čavó, in Russia, it was a favorite discussion! All of Russia knows what it was. I really enjoyed it! I told everyone about it. So, I came up with a second story there. I came up with a sequel: I know these Gypsies. Only you are watching, so that no one ... [Roma:] So, Andriukha, tu so, móre ... [come on, friend ...]. [Andrii:] These, pšála, and tanks, and armored personnel carriers, and those tigers. [Roma:] Those? [Andrii:] Yes, and everything in Zaporozhye is being transferred there, by the way, to the Ukrainian army. [Roma:] So wait, how did the Gypsies steal the tank? [Andrii:] They have a worker there, pšála. And he was a tank driver in the army. Wow, I wrote such a story there. [Roma:] But you, that's it! So, it was a joke.

Andrii deliberately supplemented the story with his own details, he explains his motivation as follows:

So, they realized that in Ukraine, Gypsies are respected. And Gypsies in Ukraine have never lived the way they live in Russia, in the sense of Gypsies, you understand. I’m, čavó, there: Hey pšála, come on, there’s a Gypsy right now, pšála, in the first place! And I said this to the Gypsies, and I said it to the gadže. Roma, čavó, are amazed: Da tu so, adá pal tumaré romá rajá now! [Really?! the police are for your Gypsies now!]. [Andrii:] Of course, pšála, come on! Amare ukrainska Roma, pšála [our Ukrainian Roma, brother], such handsome men. They promote their Putin. Should I promote my own there or not?

Another popular topic among Russian Roma was the entry of Ukrainian Roma into the ranks of the Armed Forces. Because such a phenomenon was extremely unexpected.

[Andrii]: Well, I tried to convince them that it shouldn’t be like this, you understand. Shouldn’t. This is not good. It is wrong. I tell them: There, pšála, the Roma are going, pšála, and they are defending Ukraine. The Roma are fighting for Ukraine. Are you going to fight for Russia, pšala? [Roma:] No, more, so tu... pal so... [no, friend, what are you talking... for what...].

Angelina: I say, honestly, I’m a little amazed by this patriotism. I did not think that such a brave people in Ukraine. And I tell them [the Russians] that the Gypsy guys, I say, go there to the same territorial defense there, to the checkpoints. I say: you can imagine, they go on their own, they are not forced. If we have mobilization there – everyone runs, then they go there themselves. It’s one thing when there are gadže, yes, they go, but it’s one thing when the scared Gypsies, who always run away from everything, and then they go on their own. For some, it was like, you know, like: They’re sick, well, is it worth it to put your life on the line? And for some, perhaps, it caused some kind of pleasant surprise. That all the same, among the Roma there are such people, you know, who, well, despite their lives, have some kind of courage there.

During the first eight months of the war, Andrii continued to be in Russia, but after the announcement of partial mobilization in the Russian Federation, he left the country. The reason for leaving was a security issue, because Andrii was worried that he could be forcibly mobilized into the Russian army as a resident of the region “newly annexed” by Russia. In November, Andrii left his family and left to seek refuge in the EU. Currently, he has been in Germany for more than a month and has already received the status of temporary protection. Andrii’s main problem remains the removal of his wife and children from Russia to Germany. In case of successful departure, Andrii’s wife plans to renounce her Russian citizenship in favor of Ukrainian.

Angelina, after leaving Poland for Russia, stayed with her parents for seven months, and her husband was in Dnipropetrovs’k region all this time and helped the local territorial defense. In August 2022, a Russian rocket flew into the couple’s house and destroyed the second floor of the house. After this incident, Angelina’s husband left home and went to Europe, passing by in Russia to pick up his wife and two children. Today, Angelina and her husband live in the Czech Republic.

The interviews were recorded in December 2022, after which Andrii was forced to return to Russia, as his wife and children were not allowed into the EU at the Latvian border due to their Russian citizenship. Angelina will continue to stay in the Czech Republic with her family.

All the real heroes of this article wished to remain anonymous.

In the photo: the flag of Ukraine in Uzhhorod (from the archive of Viktor Chovka)

Author: Janush Panchenko, EqualNet network

Translation: Anastasiia Tambovtseva-Koval’, EqualNet network